thekatsmiaow
Traveller
4 comments
Posted 14 years ago
Hi all those out there that are more experienced than I!
I am trying to figure out what the best path is to fit all of the below cities in... my itinerary is still very much in its embryonic stage, but I'm not sure where to start to get the ball rolling!
[b]Time period[/b]: I have about 18 weeks (4.5 months) between May and October 2010
[b]Rail Pass[/b]: Haven't decided yet - will see if I can get away with point-to-point tickets maybe??
[b]Budget[/b]: (For train tickets) About $2000 or EURO1300 or GBP1200 (is this insane?!!)
[b]Leaving from and returning to[/b]: London
[b]Places I'm thinking I'll visit[/b]: ([b]NOTE[/b]: All of these are pretty flexible except for the ones with the asterisk, which I would really like to see if possible. I am also very open to stopping at other places along the way that might fit in nicely and maybe changing a bunch of these if other places are better or more fitting to a suggested route.)
Paris (but been before)
Versailles
Other parts of France (could spend up to three weeks in France)
Barcelona
Madrid*
Other parts of Spain if time permits
Lisbon or other part of Portugal*
Morocco (specific places undecided)*
Egypt (will see the pyramids and anything else interesting - so most likely Cairo)*
Italy (specific places undecided - I quite like the idea of travelling along the Mediterranean from Spain to Italy)*
Switzerland (want to do the Alps train journey and something else?)
Austria (probably Vienna)
Israel*
Budapest and possibly other parts of Hungary
Krakow or Warsaw or maybe both?
Gdansk/Kaliningrad area (old Prussia)
Romantic Road in Germany*
Munich
Maybe Brussels somewhere
I'm on a major budget, so the cheapest options will be a massive influence for me. I'm happy to sleep on trains, in a couchette but not on a reclining chair!I'm interested in beautiful train journeys, getting off the beaten track every now and then for some walks and some real European culture, staying with locals, volunteering and back-door approaches to site-seeing and tour-taking... :)
If you love planning or have done part of this route before that you found worked well, I would love you to get involved! I think the trickiest bit is finding a logical route that includes the African and Asian countries - every time I think of a good route, it seems to skip these by. Maybe they're worth flying to to make it worth my while rather than train-ing to them.
Any help is much appreciated!
Head
Traveller
101 comments
Hi,
You definetely need railpasses, not single tickets, at least for the most part of your trip. What is your country of residence then - is it USA?
Peter
Traveller
9333 comments
Hi. Like Head said, a railpass would be the best option for you.
You will have to use a plane for Israel and Egypt.
Morocco is good to do by train. Just cross the Mediterranean Sea in the South of Spain. The European rail passes are not valid in Morocco, but train tickets are extremely cheap:
[u]https://rail.cc/en/ferry-spain-morocco/f2460[/u]
Peter :)
thekatsmiaow
Traveller
4 comments
Thanks so much for the responses! I'm an Australian who is travelling on a German passport (dual citizenship), so I can Interrail (rather than Eurail) if I need to.
The question I have with railpasses is that if I am to visit, say 18 major places over 18 weeks, I would be moving maximum every 4 days (with smaller places visited in between), which makes the passes hard to make work when you have to travel x number of times within a limited timeframe. Would a rail pass be worthwhile if I am only moving every 4-7 days?
Thanks for the tips on Morocco, Egypt and Israel - I thought as much!
Can anyone suggest a good route to hit most of these places and some other gems along the way?
Thanks again - most appreciated. x
Flo
Traveller
10724 comments
Hi!
I just add some random thoughts for a possible route...be it with a railpass or regular tickets. Maybe a combination of both is the way to go...I think in Western Europe it's better to use railpass for you since regular tickets are probably more expensive (unless you get those cheap tickets in advacne where you are set on date and train)...altough there are supplements to pay railpass should come cheaper overall. In Eastern Europe you could think about point-to-point tickets but that may again depend on where and how you travel...such a major tour is kind of tricky to plan but I'm sure we'll find a good solution.
However, now for the route:
Paris
Versailles > make this a day trip from Paris; either by RER C or Transilien from Gare de Montparnasse, railpass [b]not[/b] valid
Three weeks France...Le Puy en Velay, via Alès (Ligne des Cevennes) to Carcassonne, the Perigord (Brive la Gaillarde, Sarlat, Bergerac, Périguex), via Clermont-Ferrand to Lyon, TGV to Perpignan and via Latour de Carol (Petit Train Jaune) to Barcelona
Madrid > night train to Lisbon
Lisbon, day trip to Sintra, maybe also go up to Coimbra or even Porto
down to the Algarve and then via Vila Real to Cadiz (by bus) and to Sevilla
Sevilla > Malaga for the ferry to Morocco (go to Granada first if you have the time)
Morocco > Egypt > Israel ...the complicated part...I know that ferries operate from Egypt to Greece so in case it gets difficult to get from Egypt directly to Israel you could get to Greece first, visit Europe again and then finish in Israel
From Greece you could either take a ferry to Italy or go by train (from Thessaloniki) to Budapest
...ok just read about the part that you want to travel along the mediterranean coast, so lets go to Italy first
Rome > Pisa (go to Firenze from Pisa for 2-3 days and then back to Pisa)
Genova
Nice (daytrips to Grasse, Monaco, Antibes, St Juan des Pins etc...)
Nice > Genève with direct TGV
Genève > Interlaken via Zweisimmen > Brig via Kandersteg > Milano
Milano > Zürich via Gotthard route (the whole Genève to Zürich part covers the most important alpine crossings...if you also want to go with the Glacier Express (well, who doesnt ;) ) you could either go Genève - Brig - Glacier Express - Chur - Zürich and skip the other route or...hm, I still have to think about that part ;) )
Zürich - München (for classic alpine routes via Arlberg, Innsbruck, Garmisch-Partenkirchen)
München - Romantic Road - Bruxelles
Bruxelles - Warszawa
Gdansk/Kaliningrad
Krakow
Budapest/Wien (or other way round)
plane to Israel
Flo 8)
Head
Traveller
101 comments
[quote]Thanks so much for the responses! I'm an Australian who is travelling on a German passport (dual citizenship).[/quote]
Nice combination... maybe I should also get second passport somewhere... )
one more question - are you 26 already by this May or not?
Concerning Middle East. I think the best idea is to start or finish your trip there, since May and October are probably the only months involved when heat is still bearable there. Unfortunately flights are not cheap (for instance easyJet, which is usually a budget airline, demands at least around 250 pounds for return flight from London, and airBerlin from Germany is no better). Probably it's worthwhile checking some leisure carriers for flights to Egypt. You can then travel to Israel by bus via Taba-Eilat. I'm no expert for Egypt travel, fot for Israel I can tell that good Egged bus pass was cancelled some 7-8 years ago, so only point-to-point tickets are available. Which are not expensive.
Ferry travel is hardly an option there these days. Regular ferries from Greece or Cyprus to Israel were cancelled many years ago, following another local unrest in Palestinian territories. Relying on occasional boats doesn't make sence. Flights (or land crossing in Eilat) are the only reasonable options.
Head
Traveller
101 comments
[quote]Paris
Versailles > make this a day trip from Paris; either by RER C or Transilien from Gare de Montparnasse, railpass [b]not[/b] valid
[/quote]
Navigo Découverte or Mobilis Pass will do, since they are anyway needed for travel inside Paris.
Flo
Traveller
10724 comments
Yeah, of course. With railpass I meant InterRail, Eurail etc which are not valid in the Transilien/STIF network.
thekatsmiaow
Traveller
4 comments
Wow, you guys really know your stuff!
Flo, you've put so much work into that route - thanks a lot! I'll have to sit down with my map and plot all your suggestions first... watch this space!
Just one thing though - I like the beginning of your route, but what if I went through France and straight to Madrid (not Barcelona yet), then into Portugal and Morocco as you suggest, then back up from Morocco to Barcelona and start the Mediterranean coast from there down to Italy, then over to Greece to get to Egypt?
Then bus to Isreal and make my way up to Vienna or Budapest and so on from there? Hmmm, not sure how I would best manage this or the Poland/Gdansk/Germany/Switzerland bit. Would I be best off hitting Switzerland on the Mediterranean coast leg if I did it this way?
Also, I'm planning on spending 2-4 weeks in Germany, so any suggestions for how to best spend this time would be greatly appreciated!
[quote]one more question - are you 26 already by this May or not?[/quote]
No, I'm 29, so well beyond youth unfortunately... :(
[quote]Ferry travel is hardly an option there these days. Regular ferries from Greece or Cyprus to Israel were cancelled many years ago, following another local unrest in Palestinian territories. Relying on occasional boats doesn't make sence. Flights (or land crossing in Eilat) are the only reasonable options.[/quote]
What about ferrying from Greece to Egypt and then getting a bus from Cairo to Israel? Does that seem feasible?
[quote]Concerning Middle East. I think the best idea is to start or finish your trip there, since May and October are probably the only months involved when heat is still bearable there.[/quote]
Yes - good point, I'll definitely consider this! Good thing is that I'm an Aussie, so I'm somewhat used to the heat. :D
Peter, thanks for the link regarding the travel to Morocco - makes it so much simpler to budget!
This is a massive help - I'm totally keen to hear any further options you might think of. xxx
Kat
Head
Traveller
101 comments
[quote]
Also, I'm planning on spending 2-4 weeks in Germany, so any suggestions for how to best spend this time would be greatly appreciated![/quote]
Do you expect to travel a lot during those weeks? If yes, one of Eurail passes (or even German pass) should be a solution for that part of your trip, if not - you can get through with 29-euros promo fares of Deutsche Bahn (these tickets can be used for constructing complicated day trips hitting several places) and local tickets such as Bayern Ticket for Romantische Strasse.
[quote]What about ferrying from Greece to Egypt and then getting a bus from Cairo to Israel? Does that seem feasible?[/quote]
I doubt there is any direct bus connection from Cairo (there used to be some 10 years ago, but this was before recent Gaza problems). Go via Taba-Eilat with several bus changes.
thekatsmiaow
Traveller
4 comments
[quote]Do you expect to travel a lot during those weeks? If yes, one of Eurail passes (or even German pass) should be a solution for that part of your trip, if not - you can get through with 29-euros promo fares of Deutsche Bahn (these tickets can be used for constructing complicated day trips hitting several places) and local tickets such as Bayern Ticket for Romantische Strasse.[/quote]
Yes, I suppose I do expect to travel a lot during those weeks, as I have only ever been to Berlin in Germany, and I would like to get a really good feel for the country that my father grew up in. How do the 29 euro promo fares work? Where do I look on the D-bahn website for those?
It's also good to hear about the Bayern ticket - will certainly look that one up. Has anyone done this trip? Of course, my interest in the Romantic Road is the beautiful scenery - would I be best served by a rail trip or a road trip? I'm not sure what to expect yet.
I would also be very interested in hearing which rail trips you've taken that have been memorable because of their beautiful scenery. I would definitely consider those over less beautiful trips!
[quote]Le Puy en Velay, via Alès (Ligne des Cevennes) to Carcassonne, the Perigord (Brive la Gaillarde, Sarlat, Bergerac, Périguex), via Clermont-Ferrand to Lyon, TGV to Perpignan and via Latour de Carol (Petit Train Jaune) to Barcelona
Madrid > night train to Lisbon
Lisbon, day trip to Sintra, maybe also go up to Coimbra or even Porto
down to the Algarve and then via Vila Real to Cadiz (by bus) and to Sevilla
Nice (daytrips to Grasse, Monaco, Antibes, St Juan des Pins etc...)[/quote]
Flo, some of these places I'm not familiar with - do you mention them specifically because they're great places to visit? I guess I'm interested in whether I should make sure I definitely see them! Again - such a great and detailed route - thankyou!
In general, I've not budgeted much more that 70 euro per week for rail travel (long distances and day trips, not including inter-city travel), so I will need to be extremely budget conscious and probably have to limit how many times I move in a week. Can anyone suggest any other deals or budget secrets that might help me here? I'm starting to feel I might not be able to this trip on my budget! :(
Thanks again everyone. x
Flo
Traveller
10724 comments
Hi!
Again, I throw in just some random thoughts, I'll be back with more elaborated thought tomorrow. ;)
- Romantische Straße; 20% dicount for Eurail and German Rail pass holders; you cant do it by rail since, well, there is no railway line along the route.
- Nice routes are along the Rhein (Mainz - Koblenz - Bonn), railway lines on both sides of the river; along the Mosel as well between Koblenz and Cochem (where you have connection to a small winegrowing village Traben-Trarbach; the Schwarzwaldroute is famous as well, Offenburg - Konstanz etcetc...
- I've been to most places I mentioned in France and I know that the others are considered as quite nice. If you will stay in Nice you can visit all those places I mentioned in a daytrip - distances arent far at all and you have great rail connections.
- This is a good idea to change my suggestion the way you have...like you said its difficult to fit all places in properly but now its not so bad. :)
Head
Traveller
101 comments
[quote]How do the 29 euro promo fares work? Where do I look on the D-bahn website for those? [/quote]
29 euro fare is called Dauer-Spezial
[ux]https://rail.shop/bahn[/ux] - if you can read Deutsch.
This fare can be found on certain long-distant trains, mostly off-peak, of course. Each train has limited availabity of such seats. It can be checked when searching connections on DB website. The difference from all other such fares in other countries is that DB allows changes and unlimited use of connecting regional trains.
Imagine you want to get from Stuttgart to Munchen and see Neuschwanstein castle on the same day. You need to find some morning ICE from Stuttgart to Augsburg with 29 euro availability, than ask the system for a connection Stuttgart - Munchen via Fussen (for the castle) with change time in Fussen of 5-6 hours. And you'll get your ticket for 29 euros for that ICE and connecting regional trains Augsburg - Fussen and Fussen - Munchen.
Note - this doesn't mean that such journeys are always possible and you can cross the country with multiple stops for 29 euros wherever you like. But this options do exist for many routes, as long as you avoid peak times and some business routes.
thekatsmiaow
Traveller
4 comments
[quote]The difference from all other such fares in other countries is that DB allows changes and unlimited use of connecting regional trains.[/quote]
Just to clarify Head - do you mean I could pay 29 euro for the Stuttgart to Munich journey, and get the Ausburg to Fuessen trip for free? I'm not quite sure I understand. I looked on the DB website, but it looks as though it's only the Stuttgart to Munich journey that I'm actually getting a ticket for when entered the way you suggested.
Flow - I will check out those German places you mentioned too - sounds divine.
Thankyou. :)
Head
Traveller
101 comments
[quote][quote]The difference from all other such fares in other countries is that DB allows changes and unlimited use of connecting regional trains.[/quote]
Just to clarify Head - do you mean I could pay 29 euro for the Stuttgart to Munich journey, and get the Ausburg to Fuessen trip for free? I'm not quite sure I understand. I looked on the DB website, but it looks as though it's only the Stuttgart to Munich journey that I'm actually getting a ticket for when entered the way you suggested.[/quote]
Almost so. DB sells you discounted seat on long-distant train (Stuttgart - Augsburg in this case) and doesn't bother for your ongoing connections on regional trains (Augsburg - Fussen and Fussen - Munchen) - they will be free. But this works only if you present this as one single journey (if you enter Munchen as final destination and Fussen as change station) and buy ticket accordingly. Getting just simple Stuttgart - Augsburg ticket doesn't entitle you to any ongoing connections.
Previous regional connections are also included, if needed. If for instance, you need to start from Karlsruhe, regional train from there to Stuttgart to catch long-distant train will also be free. Your ticket (Karlsruhe - Fussen - Munchen) will be the same 29 euros.