fixed travel dates/ OBB NightJet Deluxe - Eurail worth it?

Flo
Traveller
10724 comments

Hi and welcome to railcc!

Where did you look for reservation fares for Eurail travellers?

Paris - Frankfurt is possible by direct ICE or TGV "Alleo" services: [ux]https://rail.cc/en/eurail-train-reservation/tgv-alleo/172[/ux]
Thalys services run from Paris via Brussels to Cologne, where you would have to change to a ICE service to Frankfurt. Unfortunately, 1st class Interrail and Eurail passes are not valid in "Premium" class anymore, so you wont get the inclusive services (catering etc...): [ux]https://rail.cc/blog/thalys-new-fares-new-travel-classes/[/ux] - personally I don\'t really understand that decision... :(

Rome - Florence: A reservation costs 10€; 1st class pass holders can travel in Business class: [ux]https://rail.cc/en/eurail-train-reservation/frecciarossa/50[/ux]
Florence - Milan: dito; please consider that Eurail is not valid on the private "Italo" high speed trains - you have to travel with "Frecciarossa" high speed trains of state railways Trenitlia.
Venice - Rimini: 44,50€ seems very expensive again; a 10€ reservation for Venice - Bologna plus a reservation-free regional train to Rimini should do...

Naples - Rome: 139,50€???

Reservation fares for nightjet services:
[ux]https://rail.cc/en/eurail-night-train/vienna-venice-nj-237/96[/ux]
[ux]https://rail.cc/en/eurail-night-train/duesseldorf-vienna-nj-40421/43[/ux]

You could also contact ardeaay who did several tours of Europe with night trains: [ux]https://rail.cc/en/p/ardeeay[/ux]

Flo

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

"Thalys services run from Paris via Brussels to Cologne, where you would have to change to a ICE service to Frankfurt." Thanks for this - the only reason we wanted to use Thalys was to literally "see more of Europe, eveb in only through the windows of a train :)

The prices (pass & no pass) I found for the Italian trips were all on italiarail.com if I recall correctly. The Milan-Paris and Paris-Frankfurt figures were from en.voyages-sncf.com/
The Naples-Rome is Naples-FCO on the ay we fly out, we are planning to travel Executive class as a final treat.

Obviously, 10€ reservation fees for the trips you\'ve listed makes a difference, but assuming the other numbers are close to correct, the reservation fees still total just over 400€ (or 280€ if the Naples-FCO trip could be done with a 10€) , versus around 630€ for individual tickets. Add the 1100€ for the Global Pass takes me to ~1500€. If I understand it correctly The ÖBB site says a non-discounted 1-way trip for 2 adults from Vienna to Venice in a Double Deluxe sleeper is 258€, with Frankfurt to Vienna being a similar price, as shown in the screenshot I uploaded here
http://likhaavat.com/FAM-Wien.jpg
If my grasp of the ticket prices/reservation fees is correct, booking point to point tickets separately would appear to save ~400€, assuming no discount on the NightJet for Eurail pass holders.

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

Hi kiwiajeossi,

nice trip idea and good choice on going by Nightjet! They are among my favorite trains in Europe and they offer excellent service.

Just to be extra clear and to reiterate what Flo already said: Eurail does get you a discount on the Nightjet. You can view reservation fees here : https://www.eurail.com/en/europe-by-train/night-trains/obb-nightjet (Official Eurail website).

A quick note on going from Paris to Frankfurt: In my personal, subjective opinion, the high speed lines via Brussels and Cologne are not as scenic or interesting as the direct Paris-Frankfurt line. If you want to make this detour, I recommend a stopover of a few hours in Brussels or Cologne to have a look at one of the cities and make it worth your while (use lockers for your luggage). For example, Cologne Cathedral is right next to the station. In addition, I recommend that you take the slower, scenic Rhine valley line from Cologne to Frankfurt. Use your journey planner at plan.rail.cc and use the option "add intermediate stops", then enter "Koblenz Hbf". For example, there is a direct intercity train, IC 2027 from Cologne to Frakfurt (departing Cologne main station at 15:53) which travels this route. More information here: [u]https://rail.cc/en/river-rhine-valley[/u]

Have a nice trip!

Quenzon

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

THANK YOU so much, Quenzon! Please bear with my newly old brain (I\'ve been 50 for just under 8 hours :) - is the reservation fee listed all that I would need to pay for the NightJet as a Eurail Pass holder? So, 94€*2 for Frankfurt to Vienna, and another 94€*2 for Vienna to Venice? If so, this cements the value of the Pass to me, supporting and enhacing the value outlined in Flo\'s very helpful initial response.

As for "the high speed lines via Brussels and Cologne are not as scenic or interesting as the direct Paris-Frankfurt line" - again, thank you! We were not wedded to the Thalys idea, and the convenience of a direct trip alone is a BIG plus.

Thanks to you and Flo, I have much clearer idea of the cost comparison. If I may impose on your patience and helpfulness one more time, I just want to make sure I\'ve got this right:

If I read this page correctly https://www.eurail.com/en/europe-by-train/high-speed-trains/tgv and add the information from the page you linked to above

Then as a Pass holder my total reservation costs for the 4 trips either wholly or partly outside Italy would be
Milan-Paris 89€ * 2 = 178
Paris-Frankfurt 50€ * 2 = 100
Frankfurt-Vienna 94€ * 2 = 188
Vienna-Venice 94€ * 2 = 188

Is this correct? If so, it makes the Pass value for money, and if that\'s the case I will DEFINITELY buy mine via the link here to say thanks!

Flo
Traveller
10724 comments

I\'ve posted links to both the Vienna - Venice and Düsseldorf - Frankfurt - Vienna nightjet trains before; you will find the reservation fares for Eurail passholders there as well. ;)
Prices listed there are always per person, so you would have to pay 94€ per person for a bed in a Double Deluxe compartment - so your calculations (2x94€ for Frankfurt - Vienna and 2x94€ for Vienna - Venice) are correct.

Also, your other calculations are correct as well. You can read this also here (informatoin valid for Eurail as well): [ux]https://rail.cc/blog/interrail-reservation-guide-tgv/[/ux]
Generally you can find information about reservations for passholders here: [ux]https://rail.cc/en/eurail-train-reservation[/ux] :)

Adding to Quenzon\'s tip about the Rhine Valley railway: I would recommend using a TGV Alleo service from Paris to Frankfurt (and making sure to get a reservation on the upper deck of the train). You will travel at 320 km/h an hour, faster than on the route the Thalys takes via Brussels.
Depending on your time resources you could then travel from Frankfurt via the Rhine Valley railway (via Koblenz) to Cologne/Düsseldorf and take the night train to Vienna from there - this would maximise time in your sleeping compartment and add the beautiful Rhine Valley to your itinerary.

Thanks for supporting - we are partners of eurail.com, so if you purchase your passes via [ux]https://rail.shop/eurail/[/ux] you get the pass at no added costs directly from eurail.com plus supporting our work here. :)

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

Thank you Flo, you\'ve both been ENORMOUSLY helpful I\'ve just realised I have one more important question:

Is there anywhere that shows the earliest possible reservation dates for all the various networks - trenitalia, SNCF, and ÖBB?

Given the quotas in place for Eurail Pass holders, I plan to book both our TGV trips (Milan-Paris, Paris-Frankfurt) on the very first date I can. Likewise with all our trips actually - I want to make our reservations on the day the booking window for each journey opens. So if the window is 90 days prior to the date of travel, I would make an entry in my Google Calendar for that 90th day, reminding me to book the trip on that very day.

I look forward to supporting your outstanding service by purchasing my pass next week via the link you provided. I\'m so glad I found this forum before I bought my pass!

Flo
Traveller
10724 comments

ICE/TGV Alleo (France - Germany) usually up to six months in advance
TGV France - Italy usually up to four months

nightjet services usually 180 days in advance

:)

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

"ICE/TGV Alleo (France - Germany) usually up to six months in advance
TGV France - Italy usually up to four months

nightjet services usually 180 days in advance"

That\'s great news, thanks! So as soon as my money comes in next week, I can not only buy my Global Pass but also book all but the Milan-Paris trip, yay! Although the ÖBB site does say its 2018 timetable is not confirmed yet and may be subject to change.

Flo
Traveller
10724 comments

This is due to the timetable change on December 10 - generally the timetable for 2018 is set and there will be only minor alterations if any. ;)

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

Hi kiwiajeossi,

You calculations are correct, I\'m glad we could help :) Just a quick addition on the Rhine Valley: Flo has found - as usual - the optimal solution :) I would just like to add that coming directly from Paris, it might be more convenient for you do make a change a Mannheim rather than Frankfurt (Paris-Mannheim-Cologne instead of Paris-Frankfurt-Cologne), as there are more frequent direct IC services via the Rhine Valley line (as opposed to ICE services via the high speed line) between Mannheim and Cologne. Use the journey planner for detailed info, use the "via Koblenz" trick I described above. In any event, make sure you allow plenty of time for the change to the Nightjet, there is only one a night :) Let us know if you have any other questions.

Best,

Quenzon

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

Excellent! is the Trenitalia Frecce booking window 180, 120 or 90, if I may impose on you once more?

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

Quenzon, thanks for the added tips on the Frankfurt trip. As it happens, we\'re not planning to do that trip at night. We\'re only in Frankfurt for a few hours to catch up with friends, the plan is to leave Paris on the early TGV around 7:00AM, then depart Frankfurt on the midnight train to Vienna.

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

"Booking opens 120 days ahead for most long-distance trains in Italy, except when the mid-June & mid-December timetable changes intervene."

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

"We\'re only in Frankfurt for a few hours to catch up with friends, the plan is to leave Paris on the early TGV around 7:00AM, then depart Frankfurt on the midnight train to Vienna." Sound like a solid plan. I was spinning of Flo\'s idea of doing a detour via the Rhine railway. If you want to maximize your time in Frankfurt, but still see the Rhine valley at dusk, take a high speed train from Frankfurt to Cologne in the evening, and then the Nightjet from there (The Cologne-Frankfurt-Vienna Nightjet also travels on the Rhine Valley Line between Cologne and Frankfurt) - so many options :) But remember, no tight connections, please, you wouldn\'t want to waste those 2x94 Euros ;) My rule of thumb would be to allow at least two hours of transfer time to the Nightjet, whether you take it from Frankfurt or from Cologne. Hope that helps.

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

", no tight connections, please, you wouldn\'t want to waste those 2x94 Euros My rule of thumb would be to allow at least two hours of transfer time to the Nightjet, whether you take it from Frankfurt or from Cologne."

Would 85 minutes be safe? The option that fits best with our current itinerary would get us in to Cologne at 19:56, with the Nightjet leaving at 21:21. We\'ll be travelling light, just backpacks, so not a lot of luggage to worry about.

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

I would say that\'s fine. However, as a precaution, I would install the "DB Navigator" App on your phone an keep an eye at possible delays throughout the day (real time info will be available, there is also an option to get an email or text in cases of delays). If your train to Cologne ends up having a massive delay for some reason (they are not very common, but they do happen), make sure you check the connection early enough to be able to take a different train and have the alternative connection ready for reference. You can see punctuality statistics for German trains here (the interface is a bit finicky, let me know if you need help): http://www.zugfinder.de/ (Enter the train number without whitespace (for example, "ICE599") in the entry field "Zugnr. eingeben" and hit return).

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

Danke vielmals! It\'s been 30+ years since I was bilingual in German, but I still had no trouble understanding"PÜNKTLICHKEIT 100%" on the "Verspätungsdaten und Pünktlichkeit von Zug ICE 812" results. :) "Maximum Verspätung" listed as 7 minutes, so I think we should be OK with this connection, yay!

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

Gern geschehen :) Check again in April, in case there is construction on the line or something, but yeah ICE 812 seems like a pretty reliable chap :)

Flo
Traveller
10724 comments

If you\'re taking ICE 812 you will travel with the Cologne - Frankfurt high speed line; and only see the Rhine Valley basically at night (sun sets around 20:30 in the end of April).

ICE 26 runs directly from Frankfurt (dep 17:42) via the Rhine Valley to Cologne (arr 20:05) and would be perfect for you, leaving you with enough time in Cologne for a quick look to the cathedral and a quick walk to the river Rhine. Anyway, since you are meeting friends you might want to maximise time in FFM so there would be still time to think about which train you take in the end. So I wouldnt cut down time for meeting your friends just to get to Cologne via the Rhine Valley. ;)

If you do and the train would be seriously delayed you could get off the train at, say, Bonn and board the nightjet there (both trains run on the same line).

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

Thanks for another option to consider, Flo! We have either 2 or 3 hours to spend with our friends in the afternoon, so we\'ll definitely keep this option in mind. Checking the details for ICE 26 on the DB page, it says
Frankfurt(Main)Hbf dep 17:42 6 ICE 26 Intercity-Express Direction: Hamburg Hbf
Bordrestaurant
Frankfurt(M) Flughafen Fernbf arr 17:55 Fern 6
Transfer time 14 min.

Frankfurt(M) Flughafen Fernbf dep 18:09 Fern 6 ICE 504
ICE 254 Intercity-Express Direction: Dortmund Hbf

Köln Hbf arr 19:05,

ICE 504 has a rather patchy record over the last month, at zugfinder
DURCHSCHNITTL. VERSPÄTUNG
13 Min.
letzte 30 Tage
PÜNKTLICHKEIT
61.9%

Flo
Traveller
10724 comments

You do not have to change trains. ICE 504 and ICE 254 both run via the high speed line, whereas ICE 26 will run through the Rhine Valley. ;)

The schedule of the train:
Frankfurt Hbf (central station) dep 17:42
Frankfurt Airport arr 17:55/dep 17:58
Mainz Hbf arr 18:18/dep 18:20
Koblenz Hbf arr 19:11/dep 19:13
Bonn Hbf arr 19:44/dep 19:46
Köln Hbf arr 20:05

This means you have over one hour in Cologne to cope for delays: [ux]https://rail.cc/en/eurail-night-train/duesseldorf-vienna-nj-40421/43[/ux]
In case of a delay over one hour you could think of getting of at Bonn, "gaining" an extra 20 minutes, and getting on the nightjet there.
If the train would be severely delayed in Frankfurt already you could think of getting another (earlier) connection via Koblenz/Rhine Valley or even taking a much faster ICE service via the high speed line to Cologne. :)

Officially you have to "claim" your reserved beds within 15 minutes after departure in Cologne, but if you meet a friendly conductor they might be able to pass on that your will board at another station (Bonn); and in any way such large delays that you have to recast your plans are not very likely. ;)

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

" ICE 26 will run through the Rhine Valley" - thanks! I spoke to my wife about this and like me, the first thing that appealed about going to Cologne was getting on the NightJet much earlier, at 21:21 instead of 00:08. Choosing a more scenic route to get there would be the icing on the cake, so I think we\'ll give this our best shot

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

I agree, ICE 26 sounds perfect.

Quenzon
Traveller
97 comments

However, it\'s not terribly reliable: http://www.zugfinder.de/zuginfo.php?zugnr=ICE_26

So it\'s definitely worth watching out for delays on the day. A safer option might be IC 2022, leaving Frankfurt at 15:44, arriving at Cologne 18:05. It\'s also not all that reliable, but at this point, you\'ve got a 3+ hours buffer, which pretty much puts you in fail-safe territory. It also looks like most delays are incurred after Cologne (between Cologne and Hamburg) for IC 2022.

http://www.zugfinder.de/zuginfo.php?zugnr=IC_2022

You can have a look at the cathedral or have a nice dinner downtown to pass time time until the Nightjet departs. ICE 26 does cut it a bit more closely, but it\'s still relatively safe.

kiwiajeossi
Traveller
53 comments

"http://www.zugfinder.de/zuginfo.php?zugnr=ICE_26"

Yikes! I will keep an eye on this link and see if it improves - I\'m not shelling out 99 Euros for Zugfinder Pro, so I\'ll hope that in the next few months ICE 26 can improve that patchy record. Even so, with an average delay of 17 minuts and a window of 70, it should be ok.